Aggie: One Chapter Closed

July 5, 2008 – 2:37 pm

OK I did not get outside as I promised myself I would, because I have been “celebrating” all day, but I still can’t quite believe that I finished it. I mean I actually finished it.

The Purple Hymnal is done. 

I got what I could wring out of it (which was a surprising amount). I do feel a sense of relief that it’s finished.

Do I feel different, like the weight of my life has been lifted from me? No, but I didn’t expect that. I don’t feel changed in the sense that I’m a whole new person, but I feel little changes, here and there, in the way I think, and the way I see the world. Hopefully I can keep the small momentum going until I don’t have to so consciously think of it anymore.

There was a discussion of closure on WCG-A, and it came up that sometimes you just aren’t going to get the closure you actually want, so you have to make the “next best” closure that you can, and stick to it. As Dr. Phil asks the people on his show, “What is the most minimal thing you can do, that will give you a sense of closure for your past?” For me, it was the PH. (No, NOT the WW. It certainly didn’t start out that way. It ended up that way. But that’s neither here nor there.)

The most minimal thing I could do, to get some closure, is now done. I don’t know if I necessarily feel changed in a revolutionary way, or a better person for it, but I’ve done it. I stuck with it through to the end, and now it’s finished.

Which isn’t to say I won’t revisit and reread it from time to time, just to keep my insights fresh in my mind. But I think I’ve dragged the last of the ingrained beliefs out into the light, kicking and screaming, and made my brain give them up. Hopefully that means there’s room for some good stuff in there now.

Minimal progress is still progress after all.

Isn’t it??

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“There’s nothing I can do for you”

July 5, 2008 – 11:36 am

I related a few weeks ago how I was on a date with someone at the Universal Citywalk, and some religious nuts walked up to me and my date at the time and started their spiel. The initial conversation went something like this:

“Do you know what happens to you after you die?”

“No.”

“Do you care what happens to you after you die?”

“No.”

“Not at all? Not even a little?”

“Nope. Not worried about it at all.”

“Well, then, there’s nothing I can do for you”.

At which point, he turned on my date, which I let happen for a minute or two before I reengaged him. She was not comfortable and seemed to have some passive tendencies, which made me step in and start arguing with him. He was on the “The crucifixion hurt sooooooooo much” stage when security came and told him to shut up.

But why was there nothing he could do for me?

There are a lot of things that I have in common with religious people. I enjoy a good sunset, I like watching the birds flit around and finding nests full of babies and watching them get fed. I like mountains and trees and midgets. I like the desert east of LA, it’s starkly beautiful, I think. I like the stars and the sun and the night sky, I like the cool air just before dawn, I like beautiful women and a good meal.

I think most religious people like the same thing.

It seems that our only real disagreement is from how it came into being and what keeps it running.

And it seems like a profoundly silly difference.

Whether or not there is a God, whether or not there is a Jesus or Allah or whatever, whether or not there are angels or supernatural powers or what not, this is where we live. This. Here. We don’t live in the future, we don’t live in whatever happens after we die, we don’t live in heaven with just little extensions of ourselves on Earth. We live here. Everyone. Christians, Muslims, Jews, Atheists. We all share the planet. And it strikes me as profoundly stupid that there are people out there who are so stupid and narrowminded that they think that they can’t “do anything for someone” if they don’t share the same mythology.

Right outside a fucking movie theater that in another world all four of us could have gone into and watched a movie and not given one flying fuck about what the other believed, as long as we enjoyed the here and now.

My problem with Christians, and Armstrongites are definitely in this category for these purposes (not for any others) is that they just… don’t let it go. They can believe what they want. I don’t have any problem with that. They can believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster for all I care. It’s a profoundly stupid belief, but that’s really not important. The important part is that they keep it to themselves and treat me like a fucking person instead of a mark to be converted. They do that, we’re cool.

Too bad so many can’t seem to.

I think that one problem with the Internet is that all of these blogs are public. I mean, you have sites like As Bereans Did over there, which is quite good at talking to religious people. But it’s a public blog, so people like me can go over there, even though I’m not the intended audience, read it, and go “Damn, that’s stupid” - even though I was never the audience they were going for. Then I go over and make a snipey comment on my blog, of which the intended audience is very different. This goes on hundreds of thousands of times in a day on the blogosphere. Before blogs, you’d have people getting together via email or even gasp in person, and they’d discuss their beliefs, and there wouldn’t be any of this sniping. In one sense I think it’s a good thing, because people are being involuntarily exposed to ideas they wouldn’t otherwise, but in other senses it’s a bad thing, because the “privacy of beliefs” is getting muddied. I say let them talk amongst themselves. Maybe it’s intellectually dishonest, maybe it has no rigor whatsoever, and maybe the application of logic to it is an exercise in futility, but so what. As long as logic gets applied in my life and in public policy (so that I’m free to live my life in a logical and sane way), I don’t really care anymore.

I also don’t care if Weinland or Flurry or what not want their own little empire anymore. It doesn’t bother me, because no one’s being held at gunpoint. If they want to suspend their disbelief and give those fraudsters money, then let them have at it. But if they want to raise a kid in it… that’s a little different. And it’s also a battle that at this time is impossible to fight, as parents seem to have incredible leeway on how to raise their children, no matter how much damage they cause. Agree with it or not, that’s how it is.

So, the fight’s over. I’m tired of it. Christians are never going to be logical, Christians are never going to have any intelligence when it comes to applying logic to their beliefs, and that’s OK. As long as they leave me the fuck alone, and let me enjoy the sunset and the cold air before the sun comes up… that’s all that matters to me. Just keep your God to yourself, stay away from my blogs if you don’t like what I have to say, and let me be, and I’ll attempt to do the same to you. Of course, if you start getting politically active with your nonsense, I’ll have to respond in kind, but you knew that already.

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Aggie: Quote of the Week

July 3, 2008 – 6:21 pm

From Ambassador Watch’s comments section:

Unfortunately, people who succumb to Armstrongism become warped in their thinking. Judgement becomes more important than mercy.

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Aggie: Reading Material: “Farewell to God”

July 2, 2008 – 12:51 pm

Shortly upon exiting the church, the familial reading material (which had always included wacko religious tracts, to be laughed at and dissected, but always viewed as “pagan”) broadened immensely, helped in no small part by the advent of the family computer being signed on to the Internet.

Being home-schooled (albeit with approved Ministry of Education curricula), television of choice, particularly my choice, was the local news, and the national news station, just recently inaugurated, on which there were several talk shows that had been transferred over from the national radio station of the same ilk. 

It was on one of those shows that Charles Templeton was on a panel with Pierre Berton, debating whether or not he (Templeton) was an atheist or an agnostic. At the time, Templeton defended himself, and Berton just insisted he was deluded, as Templeton shilled for his latest book.

Regardless of the verbal sparring, the two appeared to be fast friends, and both men made several salient points that impressed themselves upon my mind at this juncture, a year or so in to my journey out of the church.

It was with that atmosphere of inquiry, coupled with my obssessive (and purely clandestine) reading of the material available on the Internet Infidels (much more abridged, back then, over what is available now), that I came into possession of Templeton’s book, Farewell to God.

When Templeton’s name came up on Ironwolf just recently, my memory was twigged about the book, which I still have in my possession. I remember at the time thinking, “Oh, well, he’s just bitter,” but this was very early on, in my exit from the church. (We had only just started to stop attending services “religiously”.) So I dug the book up from the back of my bookshelf today, blew the dust off the cover, and started reading it.

All the same arguments I have made in recent months, about the tribal monotheistic deity of the old testament, were backed up by what I reread from the book. Either the contents of the book stuck with me, or I have become more sympatico to the contents of the book, as time has worn on.

What struck me was, in my dim memory of reading the book, I didn’t recall Templeton’s exact stance on the new testament. Seeking to refresh that memory, I began rereading the book today. The book is divided into sections, the first expounding upon the logical thought processes that can and should be applied to the old testament, and how the narrative breaks down when they are. The second section deals with the new testament in approximately the same manner. (Although it maintains a belief in the historical christ figure, it denies that figure’s divinity, a view I am not sympathetic with, as I am more partial towards pagan roots theology vis a vis the new testament.) This section was prefaced by a dividing page, with the words “The God Men Created”. The title of the first chapter in this section is Jesus of Nazareth.

There was a bookmark at that spot.

I cannot now recall, through all the years and all the lives and all the locales I have lived, since I first read the opening sections of the book, why or if I stopped reading at that section, and why I never came back to it. At that point in my journey out of the church, was I still clinging too much to the idea that, as mean and bad-tempered as the Judaic god was, I knew that already, I didn’t need to be informed of that? But my concept of Christ was still too tender a spot to let go of?

I cannot at any point remember from my childhood, ever absolutely believing in Christ. Of course I must have, I believed in all the rest of it. But I honestly can’t remember. I remember the crucifixion being preached of from the pulpit, and all the pre-Passover sermons playing Bible jigsaw, cutting the relevant proof-texts, and fitting them together neatly at right angles, even though none of it blatantly made any sense at all.

But I don’t remember ever feeling anything beyond the anticipation of what Christ would do and become, “when Kingdom came”. (Of course, the kingdom never came, and never would come, and never will come.)

As I say, Templeton and I part ways, with regards to the belief that there was a man who lived and died long ago at Jerusalem. I do not believe that to be the case, and I believe the New Testament gospels to be the Nicene Council’s adoption of the mystery school religions of Egypt, “Judaized” in a manner that would neither offend the Judaic believers, nor alienate the Roman citizens, as Constantine sought to unify his crumbling empire.

Nevertheless, Templeton’s approach reveals a lot of the errancies, contradictions and blatant disparities, between the “traditional savior christ” that modern Christians worship, and the actual “Jesus” (whether you believe that “Jesus” to be Jesus the Christ saviour, or Jesus ben Pantera, or an amalgamation of the legends of Horus, combined with the cataphatic theology of the happy teachings of the cult of Isis), do point out several glaring inconsistencies, even within the canonized texts themselves.

(Templeton does not delve at all into the Gnostic gospels, sadly, although he does make mention in the book of both the Q and L texts.)

Definitely a book well-worth reading, and the author is someone an ex-member of the church can definitely feel empathetic towards: After all, Templeton himself, has been on the other side of faith — and come out with intellect and human reasoning perfectly intact and unassailed.

A book well-worth reading, and if you believe in the historicity of the Christ figure, definitely more palatable a text, than say, Harpur’s The Pagan Christ.

Interestingly enough, Templeton maintains the historicity of the christ figure, but denies the divinity and the religion upon which it has been based. In contrast, Harpur denies the historicity of the christ figure, and the religion upon which it has (allegedly) been based, but Harpur still accepts (for himself) the divinity of the christ figure, albeit that the christ figure was called Horus in an earlier version of the legends.

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Why am I “tolerant”?

July 1, 2008 – 7:20 pm

Aggie had an interesting observation in a comment below:

I was kind of wondering at the slide towards tolerance for the more avid preaching as of late. But hey, it’s your party, you’re the host.

It deserves a response.

I guess the short answer is I’m not all that angry anymore. I don’t feel like busting people up for spouting stupidity. What’s the point? Christians are ruining our country with their apocalyptic drivel, some of whom are actually running around trying actively to start armageddon so Jesus will return sooner. Some are trying to get Intelligent Design in schools, because they somehow got it into their feeble little minds that evolution is evil. Even though it’s what happened - they won’t let reality get in the way. And they sit there doing their little exercises in so-called logic, all of which are pretty much anything but, and end up just being a rehash of the same old tired fucking points, over and over.

You can’t reason with them. Most won’t even acknowledge how their beliefs could be seen as stupid. They just move from one illogic to another illogic with the speed, grace, and agility of a greased prostitute, never once seeing how stupid they are making themselves look.

I am scared. I am scared for what they will do to this country or world once they get their mitts fully around it, I am scared of what they would like to do to me and are working towards getting the power to do, and I am profoundly saddened and disappointed that such ignorance and stupidity can even exist, yet flourish.

And yes, I just spent the last few paragraphs calling most Christians stupid. Deal with it.

But you know what? There’s not a damn fucking thing I can do about it.

I can shout until I’m blue in the face, I can yell that the emperor has no clothes until the cows come home, I can yell and scream and call them out on their idiocy forever.

And it will do absolutely nothing.

Because you can’t argue with it.

So I just tolerate it because there’s no use anyway. They’ll find somewhere else to spew their moronic drivel, and the only thing that getting on them does is raise my blood pressure, because they’ll just go off and shake their heads about the poor lost Russell somewhere in California, and go on with their life exactly as they were going to before. I’m not helping anything. I’m not making the world a better place by posting here, I’m not succeeding in anything but venting my own opinions. And everything else, well, sigh. I can delete the comments, but it doesn’t do any good, not really.

When I gave Aggie the ability to post here a while ago, I did so with the express stipulation that she not mess with comments on my posts. I withdraw that stipulation. If she wants, she can do anything she wants except edit my comments or my posts. I don’t really care. She’ll probably be better at it right now than I am anyway. Not to say she will, but she can if she wants.

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I. give. up.

June 29, 2008 – 10:46 pm

Over on As Bereans Did, Seeker of Truth (who seems to be quite a nice guy when he’s not waxing Goddy) had a post that kind of rubbed me the wrong way. He says the following:

You know what I think about the quest for truth and how to find it?
It’s pretty simple actually;

1)WANT THE TRUTH
if you don’t truly want it, you won’t get it

2)DON’T ASK OTHERS WHAT THEY THINK THE TRUTH IS
leave it to God to reveal this, He is smarter than people

3)TELL GOD YOU WANT THE TRUTH
now that you know you want it, you need to tell Him you want it

Whoa, whoa, back the truck up.

I’m sorry, SOT, but I find this to be quite disingenuous. You know why?

Because you aren’t seeking the truth.

I have no problem with people who go off on an honest seeking of truth, and they come out being Christians. I have no idea why the fuck they’d do that, but that’s what they did, and if it makes ‘em happy more power to them. But this is not an honest seeking of truth. This is starting with quite a few assumptions. You are already directed towards a faith of some kind, because these steps are assuming that God exists, that God wants what’s best for you, and as the following steps show, that God is a Christian God, that he speaks through the bible, that Jesus exists, that Jesus was a literal person… the assumptions go on and on.

This is not a seeking of truth, this is a seeking of being a better Christian. And you know what? If you look to be a better Christian, yes, you’ll be one - but that doesn’t mean you’re gonna find the truth.

And this, to me, speaks of the incredible, insufferable (SOT, you know I care, but I’m going to have to be honest here, try not to take it personal) arrogance of the Christian mind.

And the response to my comments saying such were fairly condescending.

I guess mine could be taken the same way, but do you know why I think mine are not? Because mine are inclusive. I don’t care if you’re Christian, Islam, Quaker, Buddhist, Taoist, whatever. You’re wrong. But that’s OK, I am to. Everyone has a piece of it, and when you take those pieces and put them together you get… the truth. The truth that no one has, that everyone wants, and that everyone comes to in their own way and through their own path. But not the Christians. Oh, no. You get your Bible, you get a bunch of myths that may or may not be true, you assume they are true, and you lie your entire life based on the assumption that those myths are inviolable.

Your choice, of course. You want to limit yourself, have at it. But I’m sick of it.

I’m not going to engage these Christians anymore. I’m tired of being condescended to. I’m tired of having to feel like somehow I’m less of a person because I don’t believe in the same sky buddy that they do, and I’m tired of having to shake it off because the feeling that I’m less of a person is utterly irrational - by definition, I’m more of a person - because there’s room in my system for everyone. Even Christians. At least Christians who aren’t insufferably and unapologetically arrogant.

So… I give up. Enough of that shit. There was a reason that I didn’t want this site to have any kind of Christian stuff in it in the first place, a rule which I relaxed. I’m not sure why I relaxed it anymore. I’m not going to change it back at the moment, but I’m just not going to waste my energy on this shit anymore. Life’s too short, and while there may be a God, there is no Jesus, there may be an ideal of Jesus but an ideal ain’t gonna send me to hell, and it’s time I just shake my foot off and move on with my life, such as it is.

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Grand Unified Theory

June 29, 2008 – 10:29 pm

I… either spent or wasted, I can’t decide which… three hours watching this video. It lasts four hours. I watched three of them. The topic is fascinating. Basically this guy, Nassim Haramein, has come up with a Grand Unified Theory that is quite interesting and also quite food for thought.

And he’s done a bit more than your average crackpot by managing to write a peer reviewed paper and get it into a scientific journal. Which is one of the only things that is keeping me from dismissing him out of hand.

But I listened, and I thought, “This guy is either the smartest genius I have ever seen, and will change the world, or this guy is an unmitigated crackpot with a physics background.” And I still haven’t been able to decide which.

However, there were a few things that fascinated me. One of them being his treatise on crop circles. Specifically, this one.

This is a stereotypical “gray” type alien, holding a CD-like image, which actually has text encoded in it, in ASCII.

The text reads as follows:

Beware the bearers of FALSE gifts & their BROKEN PROMISES.
Much PAIN but still time.
BELIEVE.
There is GOOD out there.
We oppose DECEPTION.
Conduit CLOSING.
[bell sound] (ASCII 0×07)

I heard this, and I wanted to believe. I wanted to believe desperately. I wanted to grab onto every bit of hope and belief that this message had. I was ready to set aside pretty much all of my skepticism to believe this. It passed.

But that’s the point, isn’t it? Wouldn’t it be nice for there to be something out there watching over us, helping us through, making sure we don’t do things that are too stupid? Wouldn’t it be great if there were a benevolent intelligence out there, ready to step in if we did really stupid stuff? I think it would, and I’d give almost anything to have even a shred of evidence that it was there.

But I don’t.

I don’t, and I spent most of the afternoon depressed because of it.

Some of you Christians really piss me off, you know that? And do you know why? Because your fucking God is supposed to be sitting out there, loving and caring for everyone, and yet - look at this. I have more hard evidence that extraterrestrial beings care than your God. And somehow I’m expected to believe? Even if I want to and would just like an excuse to be able to just wash my hands of all of it and leave it in the hands of something more intelligent and capable?

Crackpot? Maybe. But whether or not what he’s offering is true, he’s offered more concrete hope than a whole flood of Christians.

More soon.

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We are animals

June 27, 2008 – 10:38 pm

I have been giving some thought to the situation the world is in, the situation that I was in because of the WCG, etc., etc. I’ve come to some interesting thoughts that I’ll now subject you the reader to.

Much of what we do on a day to day basis can be narrowed down to the fact that we are animals. When we are faced with something that causes us fear, we either fight or flee. That’s the “fight or flight” instinct. We’ll generally do one or the other.

Unscrupulous people can and do take advantage of that. The WCG was “flight”. They taught us to be scared of what was happening around the world, so we fled to the refuge that the WCG manufactured and offered. And once you have found that refuge, you’ll do whatever is necessary mentally to stay there - regardless of whether it makes continuing sense or not.

Others choose to fight. Hence those useless wars off in the middle east.

But it’s all rooted in fear.

It seems the best solution to that is… don’t be afraid.

But that’s easier said than done. It’s in our nature to be afraid, and once we are, it’s in our nature to fight or flee.

But I got to thinking of what role spirituality has. And after some thought, I think it’s connecting to that part of us that is *not* an animal. That part of us that can calm the animal, interject some perspective into the whole situation, and say “it’s not as bad as you think it is”. Because, when you come right down to it, the absolute worst thing that can happen to anyone is death. And if you stop fearing death… what can hurt you? And death happens regardless - sooner maybe, later, maybe, but always happens.

As it says, “O death, where is thy sting?”

Spirituality is not following a bunch of stupid laws or some man in the sky. It is not following an impossible code of conduct or attending services every week. It’s not praying, it’s not judging. There is no sky buddy, there is no Jesus, there is no Mithras or Horus or any other such deities. They simply don’t exist. But their ideals do. The ideals that death is not final, that death is not to be feared, that you should strive to be something other than an animal, that you should make the best of your life, and even more importantly, make the best of your death. These ideals exist and are imperfectly expressed by religion. Expressed, modified, damaged, subverted, and destroyed by organized religion.

I no longer abhor Christians or Christianity - or any other religion. Instead, I think I feel sorry for them. Because they got stuck halfway towards what it all *actually* means, which is transcending our animal nature and tapping into something more orderly and less chaotic, and at the same time embracing the chaos and working with it to create a sum much greater than its parts. I guess halfway there is better than nothing, but if they can’t make it all the way, it just turns into a warped idea of that transcendent nature, and is ripe for being turned into a means of oppression rather than freedom.

Bad things may happen. But I’m not near as scared as would have been even a year ago. As long as I am still alive, everything’s OK. And if I’m not… hell, I won’t know anyway, or I’ll know but won’t care because I’ll have other things to worry about. :)

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Aggie: Some Heavy Reading: The Aftermath

June 22, 2008 – 2:40 pm

So I mentioned this paper in an earlier post, and I mentioned it on a few other ex-member forums as well.

Interesting the range of reactions it got, spanning from wide-eyed “That explains everything!” to hysterical gnashing of teeth “But WE weren’t a CULT you know!” Anyway I have finally managed to read through the entire thing for myself, and I’ve let it percolate for a day or so. All emphasis is my own, my remarks are bolded in brackets.

Imitative Learning

More recently, the field of neurobiology through its use of imaging studies of the brain has suggested an additional viewpoint on imitative learning. Imaging studies show that neurons in certain areas of the brain are stimulated when a growing child perceives the emotions of a parent. That is, by simply observing a parent’s emotional state, certain areas of the child’s brain are activated. These areas would usually be stimulated by the child directly if he or she were experiencing that emotion. Therefore, the discovery of the functions served by mirror neurons may suggest a human readiness to imitate the behaviors of a parental figure, and mirror neurons can be seen as building blocks used in the development of some identifications (Olds, 2006). [Read more on mirror neurons here.]

Identifications also might occur by making loss of a loved object more tolerable. For example, at bedtime, the child might sing to herself or her doll in the manner that her mother sang to her. In this way, she is diminishing the impact of the loss of mother’s availability and is learning to give herself comfort.

Identification with the Aggressor

Although identifications are usually associated with love, identifications also are made during experiences of danger. To lessen anxiety, some children or adults might interject characteristics of the anxiety-provoking object to cope with experiences of panic and helplessness. Anna Freud described this kind of identification as “identification with the aggressor” (A. Freud, 1936). In this type of identification, the individual identifies with the object’s attitude by projecting danger onto the outside and away from the object. This is an intrapsychic reaction to a real threat or actual traumatic experience. Emch (1944) further theorizes that, in some cases, where one or both parents are “unknowable” because of unpredictable, violent, or chaotic behavior or prolonged absence, the child may imitate the most “salient” of the parents’ behaviors with the unconscious aim of gaining some predictability in a difficult life.

That last sentence is the best non-victimizing (empowering even) explanation I have seen, for those 2nd-generation parents who continued on in the Spanky Meredith school of child discipline.

(Check out the latest testimony over at Ekklesia for a real live example of this. Also while I’m on the subject of Ekklesia, sign up for their new Forum, it looks like they need members.)

 In contrast to the first-generation cult member, the child who is born or raised in a cult has neither the previous personality nor a cohesively formed personality on which the new cultic personality is imposed. Aside from inherent temperament, basic character becomes affected and shaped by the child’s reaction to the cult experience. The cult personality is not superimposed, but becomes an aspect of the original personality.

I know that sounds depressing right? Read through some of the articles on the site, that may actually have made us stronger human beings. Or something. I’m still wrestling with this one.

In the cult, the charismatic leader is seen as extraordinary, all-powerful, and as an ideal being. The role of the parent often is usurped by the cult leader. Previously, I have written about the ways in which the cult leader interferes with parental authority over children (Goldberg, 2003). Rebellious, or even questioning, behavior typically is dealt with harshly, and this response serves as an example to all the cult members, especially children. Therefore, to lessen anxiety while in the cult, the growing child (to survive) often learns to be passive in response to the harsh, controlling nature of the cult leader.

Sound familiar? Yeah I thought so too.

As a result of this adaptation, the child may adopt a submissive, masochistic attitude as a response to the leader’s authority and, therefore, develop an internal experience of being insignificant or bad. This process might lead to the internalization of a harsh, critical conscience and a tendency toward self-blame.

Anyone else here a classic perfectionist? Yeah thought so. I’m actually an apathetic perfectionist. I know whatever I do I’m not going to get right anyway, so why bother trying? At least, that’s me on my bad days. Which I hope to have fewer of, in the years ahead.

When those who have been raised in cults leave that world in young adulthood, they have to enter an entirely new sociocultural environment—a wider world with new expectations and rules. These former cult members usually have tremendous difficulty with that adjustment. I have worked with several individuals who told me that entrance into the world outside the cult is complicated by the fact that their cultic upbringing has left them deprived of many coping skills to adapt to that task. They have difficulty adjusting to the problems that the external world presents and difficulty dealing with a variety of situations that others would find to be commonplace.

That definitely describes me, ten years ago, when entering the workforce. My poor co-workers. :roll:

The lack of mastery of these coping skills is exacerbated by the former cult member’s impoverished sense of identity, poor self-esteem, and fear of the outside world. The blurring of boundaries between the leader and the members and the need for idealization of the narcissistic leader have led them to a feeling that they are nothing without him or her. They believe that they need others to guide them. Furthermore, cult members are constantly exploited and shamed. (Shaw, 2003) This treatment leads many into believing they are failures because of their lack of success in the cult. This is true even if they left as a result of their recognition of cult hypocrisy or felt proud of their ability to leave a destructive environment. They may expect to fail in the outside world and go to some form of hell because they have left the perceived protection and path to holiness offered by the cult. As a result of cult suggestion as well as displacement of feelings from the cultic world onto the wider world, they see the world outside the cult as a dangerous place (Markowitz and Halperin, 1984).

“Be not conformed to this world.” “Be IN the world but not OF the world.” :cry:

Case Study: Tim

Tim’s parents joined a Bible-based cult when he was about three years old, and he was raised in his family’s home in the Midwest until he was 13. Although his parents continued to live in the family home, their life was controlled by cult edicts, and Tim was sent to religious schools within the community.

This large cultic group has a charismatic, living leader who establishes doctrine and demands obedience to himself. The rules of this church were harsh, and Tim was disciplined severely by both parents. Tim suspects that harsh treatment was consistent with his parent’s previous value system. He also believes, however, that their frustrations with the high demands of the cult intensified their poor treatment of him. He believes that their first allegiance always was to the cult.

I had a bit of different experience in that respect, in that the treatment was only from one parent, and not both of them, but I do have a lot of resentment remaining for the unconverted parent, for not getting us out of the situation.

Many children in cults experience strict behavior and physical abuse from their parents, according to anecdotal reports from former cultists and those who have written about this topic (Singer, 1995; Markowitz and Halperin, 1984; Langone & Eisenberg, 1993; Siskind, 2001). Children are seen as extensions and reflections of their parents, and parents are pressured to control their children. Because the parental tie to the cult leader needs to become stronger than the tie to their children, breaking the will of the children becomes acceptable and, sometimes, obligatory. (Goldberg, 2003).

That last sentence just takes your breath away doesn’t it?

Children raised in cults often grow up feeling hated and hateful because of this harsh treatment. They usually have experienced little help with regulating the strong affects that are stimulated by the cultic environment, particularly anxiety, anger, and grief. To survive, they often have had to suppress their emotions. Sometimes, as in the case of Tim, they appear to be out of touch. This might indicate that some degree of dissociation exists. However, overwhelming feelings periodically break through.

The last sentence describes me, in my younger years. I was particularly harsh to inanimate objects that did not live up to my expectations of them. Still am, sometimes, when I let my temper get away from me. :-(

On a positive note, I think age mitigates this, in some ways: I’m just too tired to kick the object across the room anymore, so I just stand there and curse at it bitterly instead……Is that an improvement? ;-)

In the cult, members were encouraged to be passive, and idealization was encouraged past childhood, through adolescence, and into adulthood. Cult members were treated as children and discouraged from feeling as if they were competent.

I always said the parents were expected to be children themselves, which was why they were unable to effectively parent.

In therapy, I encourage former members to find solutions and take actions on their own behalf. Breaking through the passive orientation to life enhances their sense of self.

However, despite this initial passive presentation, I have found former cultists to be quite resourceful in numerous ways.

The parts I have highlighted is one of my goals for myself. I may let loose on the Internet, but I am far more like the description of the passive “Tim” in the case study, in real life. :-(

As with many of those with whom I have worked who have been raised in cults, Tim had been poorly educated and was working well below his abilities. He began to focus on his difficulty dealing with one of his bosses. He believed that he was being exploited, and initially he felt that he was unable to change his situation. As we sorted out which of his reactions were based on realistic appraisals of his boss, he began to observe that some of these reactions might be coming from the past. This helped Tim negotiate with his boss more successfully. Eventually, he left the company and developed his own business.

I’m glad it worked out for Tim. I never attempted any kind of “negotiation” with the Levitical priesthood that passes themselves off as “Management” in the corporate culture these days, I just cut my losses and cut bait, as soon as they started up with me. And that includes my last job. :-P

But maybe that isn’t a very realistic view of the world………. :-(

I have found that former members often have a need to play out their guilt by unconsciously undermining their lives after the cult. Although Tim chose to leave his group, he continued to experience the threat of eternal damnation. Examination of post-cult guilt can help former cultists discover its origin and can lead to their ability to abandon it. However, as with many former cult members who have felt betrayed by religion, Tim has chosen a secular life.

The only guilt I have (and that I will always have) is that I was an anti-Semitic racist. :cry: I don’t know how exactly I’m supposed to “abandon” that, it’s a good thing I feel guilty about that!

Case Study: Sue

Sue describes the emotions that often are experienced by those raised in cults. Members are induced to use the splitting defense to see the cult world as all good and the outside world as evil. Markowitz and Halperin point out that splitting further occurs because cultists are induced to split off and isolate old affects (which are part of their earlier experiences). Doing this promotes a strong separation between old ties [and attitudes] and the cult (Markowitz and Halperin, 1984). Although this splitting process usually is applied to first-generation cultists, if it occurs early in adolescence, it can have a greater impact on the personality (which still is in development). Sue, like Tim, attempted to look “normal” on the outside, but they were painfully aware of feeling so different, and this created distance from others in their lives. Splitting off their past left each of them vulnerable to periods of depression and anxiety. Integration of the past into the present has allowed each of them to feel more acceptance of who they are, more in control of their actions. This integration also results in their having more energy to participate in life. Both Tim and Sue also revealed a split superego or conscience. They each struggled with following their own instincts to survive rather than strictly adhering to the moral code of the cult. Going against the rules left them feeling guilty and ashamed.

This case study addresses a patient who joined a Bible-based cult in adolescence. As stated at the beginning of the paper, “splitting” does not occur in second-generation adults born and raised in cultic groups, because we have no pre-cult “personality” to split off from, as indicated in the following paragraph.

Those who have been raised in cults also desire to experience all those activities that had been forbidden to them while in the cult. They often feel that they were robbed of a normal childhood, and they often engage in childish or adolescent activities. However, since they presently are adults, they often feel ashamed of these desires.

OK so I haven’t gone quite that far. But a lot of people tell me I look young for my age. A lot of that, I think, is that I unconsciously act young for my age (and I don’t usually catch myself doing it, until waaaaaaaay after the fact). According to some of the other articles on this site, that is actually a common presentation of those born and raised in cults, they appear to be younger than they are, and they relate to others from a younger perspective than their biological ages.

Of course, this shrink’s solution to that is “therapy”. :roll: How much of that is true, and how much of it is just “manufacturing victims” to drum up business for herself, is uncertain.

One day, Sue was very distraught as she entered my office. She had forgotten to take care of something at work that resulted in a missed deadline. She relentlessly kept berating herself. I told her that we weren’t angels walking on earth, and we are bound to make mistakes in our lives. My reaction surprised her. Later, she again was surprised when her supervisor did not condemn her for her mistake. In the cult, she had been taught that she was a sinner who must constantly repent and ask for forgiveness. But the paradox is that the goal in the cult is perfection: to be angels on earth. The cult left her with an anxious feeling that she could never catch up to perfection. As Sue felt less of a need to project a perfect image, her anxiety decreased. And as Sue’s superego became less harsh and uncompromising, she became less depressed. With less anxiety and depression, she became less involved in a whole range of potentially self-destructive behaviors to discharge her anxiety. And she became more able to feel pleasure in life.

I dunno about that “superego” psychobabble schtick, but being more able to feel pleasure in life would be a good thing, in my opinion. At least the conclusion of the paper ends on a positive note:

Conclusion

Nevertheless, these cases also reveal how those raised in cults can thrive once they have the opportunity to live richer and fuller lives. I am amazed by the perseverance these individuals and other former members have shown to improve their lives. Their demanding cult environments have encouraged them to be conscientious and hardworking individuals, and this pattern is reflected in the way they approach therapy. The cult leader has used the demand for perfection as a vehicle for exploiting members. It is important for them to become aware of how impossible and self-destructive the wish to attain perfection can be. The goal is to appreciate the hardworking aspects of their characters, but to lessen the anxiety and self-reproach attached to the need to do well. Therapy with these individuals needs to focus on helping them incorporate a more compassionate and loving attitude toward themselves. Accomplishing this task also will enhance their relationships with others. As they soften the harshness of their attitudes, they can begin to integrate the split-off parts of themselves that often lead to self-destructive behavior and depression.

Now, the paper does come at it from a “therapy is the answer” perspective, which is fine, that doesn’t negate the rest of the excellent points made in the paper.

That last sentence worries me though: According to this paper, we have no “split-off parts” because we have no “pre-cult personality” to go back to. I don’t know if she’s saying those born and raised in cults end up being psychobabbled for the rest of their lives, or what. :?:

Anyway, I gleaned a lot of things to think about from this paper, and from the other articles on the site. Recommended reading, for all three of our readers. ;-)

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Aggie: Monte Wolverton: Clearly, His Father’s Child

June 21, 2008 – 4:07 pm

So here’s the letter I sent dear ol’ Monte, after going to his website:

Purple Hymnal wrote:

You forgot to add the note about your father’s horrific illustrations being used in the WCG’s mass-distributed (amongst its members) Children’s Bible Stories series. These were distributed to most families with children, and most adult survivors of Armstrongism can still remember the stories (and their illustrations) quite clearly. These apocalyptic illustrations were also used in the Youth Bible Lessons, published by the church’s “Youth Educational Services”, referred to as “YES Lessons” by the members.
 
Someone posted your website address in the comments on a post on I Survived Armstrongism.

As promised, Monte’s response was swift. Even though it appears Monte may be several sandwiches shy of a picnic himself (all emphasis mine):

Monte Wolverton to me

Thanks for the note! Yes — I’m pretty well aware of where my dad’s work was published. You’ll be interested in The Wolverton Bible, coming out this December [Sorry no Mont I actually WON'T be interested at all in any way shape or fashion] published by Fantagraphics books. It will include all of his Bible Story, apocalyptic and humorous illustrations for the church — over 700 of them. Foreword by EC comics expert Grant Geissman and commentary and history of my dad’s involvment with the WCG by myself (thanks for the reminder — I need to add this to my website.). [I wonder just what it is, that Mont is going to "add" to his website? More apologetics, perhaps?]
You can pre order it at amazon.com here [A sales pitch? Really, Mont, did you not GET THE POINT of my original email? Hmmmmm methinks not.]
And this was released last year — an incredible collection of his work ["Incredible"? Yeah that's one word for it.]
The apocalyptic work and early Bible Story were among his best creations.
They are indeed delightfully horriffic! I’m sure more than a few kids had nightmares from them — but it many ways they was[sic] mild compared to horror movies and comics.

[Oh, you're sure many kids had nightmares from the "delightfully horrific" illustrations, but you have no compassion or empathy for those kids at all. Why am I not surprised? Also: In many ways they WERE NOT mild, in any way, shape or form Mont. But you go on and keep living in that delusional WCG apologist's universe of yours.]

The Old Testament  and book of Revelation is full of blood, gore and violence — my father sought to portray it accurately — and he understood from his comic work that many kids love violence. Hey — I read his work growing up and so did my daughter — and my grandkids — and we’re all normal — relatively, anyway.

[Good for you Mont. Interestingly enough, Mont's reaction falls directly in line with WCG's official "blame the victim" policy, to wit: "It’s so true: Often our very best attempts at reconciliation and healing will be rebuffed. But don’t give up. Don’t let their problem become your problem!" Neil Earle, July - Sept. 2007 "Northern Light" And don't even get me started on the "many kids love violence" part --- it's making ME violent --- violently ILL.]

A few people have implied that I should be apologetic for my father’s work and how it affected them — and of course I’m not about to apologize. I think its great!

Best regards — Monte Wolverton 

Where can I possibly begin? I could refer Mont to Armstrongism: Beware of False Prophets‘ post, on how his dear ol’ Dad’s illustrations affected at least one person (and I’m certain affected many of us in the same manner).

I could tell Mont how the one image I will never get out of my mind will be his father’s hallmark dystonic pose of the afflicted “victims” in those gruesome apocalyptic illustrations; not to mention those omnipresent boils. And don’t even get me started on the omnipresent sword-slicing-through-the-gut scene that was featured in almost every battle story.

I could tell Mont about the adverse effects his father’s pictures had, when combined with the totalitarian, authoritarian cult they were espousing.

Something tells me it would all simply fall on deaf, clap-happy Jebus ears.

Just let me say this, Mont, if you are even listening:

I am not “implying” that you should be apologetic. Hell, I don’t even WANT you to apologize, nor do I expect you to apologize, for your father’s actions and beliefs.

All I want you to do for me, Mont, is to TELL THE TRUTH. These images which you describe as “great”, “awesome”, and “accurate”, were used to SUBJUGATE, TERRIFY, and THREATEN, children who had absolutely no choice or control over it. Think you can admit that to the world at large?

No? I didn’t think so.

Anyone else feel bad for Mont’s grandkids? :-(

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